"When misguided public opinion honors what is despicable and despises what is honorable, punishes virtue and rewards vice, encourages what is harmful and discourages what is useful, applauds falsehood and smothers truth under indifference or insult, a nation turns its back on progress and can be restored only by the terrible lessons of catastrophe." … Frederic Bastiat

Evil talks about tolerance only when it’s weak. When it gains the upper hand, its vanity always requires the destruction of the good and the innocent, because the example of good and innocent lives is an ongoing witness against it. So it always has been. So it always will be. And America has no special immunity to becoming an enemy of its own founding beliefs about human freedom, human dignity, the limited power of the state, and the sovereignty of God. – Archbishop Chaput


Friday, April 25, 2014

Safe Havens Boost Gold

Once again, it is back to tracking events in Ukraine when it comes to gold. Traders are running away from risk and into the usual safe havens ( gold, bonds and the Yen).

This is going to be the scenario until something changes over there so get used to it. As I mentioned yesterday, it is basically a crap shoot. Those who expect the events to get worse are buying gold; those who expect them to be more contained are selling the rally. Both sides are utterly dependent on what happens next but more importantly, what is PERCEIVED to be the course of events.

Personally I do not see a lot of  upside for gold here because the situation, as tense as it is, has not thus far spread to anywhere outside of Ukraine. In that sense, while it is not insignificant, it is not likely to have much impact ( other than the short term market gyrations associated with geopolitical events ) on regions outside of that immediate area. It certainly is not going to move the Fed one way or the other when it comes to Tapering plans or interest rate policy. As mentioned many times here, that will be completely dependent on subsequent US economic data releases.

This is the reason that gold is struggling to maintain the "13" handle in spite of the escalation in tensions. If the bombs start going off in earnest or we get larger scale shooting or conflict, gold will be bid higher but many traders do not see this thing moving beyond Ukraine at this point.

What we have seen is a bout of sharp, short-covering from speculative interests who had been pressing the metal from the short side. They are standing aside and allowing events to unfold further before coming back in to sell in size. That is allowing an air pocket above the market and price is moving in the path of least resistance which for now is higher.

I would caution those who are looking to buy the metal here. Just be careful - geopolitical events are very tricky - you might hit it big and then again, you might not. Whatever you decide to go, no matter which way, long or short, do not be slow on the draw if need be. You can never anticipate when events on the ground will change and flip the market in the other direction.

As a trader you do not always need to be in the market. Sometimes the sidelines is the proper place. Let others chop each other up while you wait for the trend to re-establish itself after the excitement lifts. I have made it a habit never to chase gold over geopolitical events because one never knows how those will turn out. If you own some physical gold, you can be content with that but do not chase it higher if you are a trader. Even if you miss out on a move, the structure of the market becomes too unstable and that sort of thing is asking for disaster in these highly leveraged futures now that computers are doing the brunt of the trading.

I am noticing that crude is getting hit hard today. We have large supplies of the stuff but some are unsure how to trade it due to the geopolitical concerns. For now the bears are flexing their muscles. Gasoline is a bit weaker today but the stuff has moved up some $0.50/gallon since mid-January this year much to the chagrin and frustration of consumers who were relishing the lower prices back then.

Moo-Moos and Piggies parted ways today with hogs going down and cattle going up. Packers have been able to move the higher priced beef for now while pork demand has hit a temporary lull it would seem. Consumers are going to learn quickly, if they have not done so already, that beef prices are at record highs. Again, I look for relief later this year but the summer grilling season is going to suck.

Corn continues to draw buying from those playing up the cold, wet planting season weather. There is no doubt that planting is running behind normal. Most expected it to do so given the intensity of the cold winter and the fact that some of the Great Lakes were frozen over. The big question is whether or not we will have a good growing season regardless. Some chatter that El Nino will help out the crop is around but it is a bit early to bank on that. For now, the bulls are in charge of the corn market. They were certainly back to playing " the US is going to run entirely out of old crop soybeans" theme  in the bean market once again today as May hit the magical $15.00 level. We'll see if China begins any cancellations in earnest and whether or not imports from S. American begin to really take off.

I will get a chart up later for both gold, the COT stuff and the mining shares. I do not know whether or not the COT data will show the hedge fund short covering that has been occurring this week. My guess is that it will not, at least not in size because the big move from down below $1280 did not come until events flared up over in Ukraine on Thursday, two days after the cutoff point from the CFTC. Same goes for silver - hedge funds have been playing it increasingly from the short side and the combination of a stronger durable goods number, plus the psychological support from a higher gold price no doubt sent a fair number of shorts scurrying to cover but that occurred after Tuesday of this week. In other words, do not read too much into today's COT data. With what happened on Thursday, it is interesting but far too dated to give a clear read on how things stand here at the end of the week.

 Considering the move higher in gold and its ability to recapture a "13" handle, the miners look rather lackluster at the moment. Maybe that will change by the closing bell. The HUI continues to trade down below both its 50 day moving average and its 200 day moving average, not exactly a glaring example of a big market endorsement of the sector. There is value-based buying at work in the sector but the momentum crowd is MIA.

The US stock markets are getting hit with some selling ahead of the weekend as traders are nervous holding long positions over the weekend in which anything can or might happen. Caution/prudence dictates standing aside, especially if you have some decent profits. I suspect that a fair number of money managers/institutions are welcoming this move lower in the broader equities. Valuations have not been cheap keeping many from buying. Their problem has been that they do not want to miss the move up but are hesitant to buy when many issues are trading up so close to chart highs. The setback will allow some strategic positioning to begin taking place.

So far, 1880 - 1890 on the S&P has proven to be a bridge too far for the bulls. Its session low at 1853 is right about even with the 50 day moving average. The 100 day comes in near 1830 which also corresponds  closely to the mid-March swing low at 1823. If the 50 day does not hold it, I would look for prices to drift down towards that level to see if the market can uncover some buying there.

More later...


  1. Thanks Dan & TGIF!

    Fwiw, the 48 hour "ultimatum" Ukraine gave Russia yesterday expires Saturday afternoon.
    Sunday nights open might be interesting.

  2. Dan,
    Your writings on the markets are by far the most objective of any out there. You are truly a teacher who happens to also make a living as a trader. It really boggles the mind how some knuckleheads feel the need to bust your chops now and again. I guess you can't fix stupid. Thanks again for all the guidance my friend.

  3. "as a trader you do not always need to be in the market" wise words but for some they just have to place bets. I used to be "in' a lot more than I was 'out' but now I can, with effort, sit and watch. seems like there's no war premium now, kind of a surprise, so not much to drive the PM market right now.

  4. This Thursday's downside reversal on Gold was a healthy occurrence which purges out weak hands who follow trends. Once could only say this after today's( weekend ) after seeing upside follow up in Gold's price and confirmation from ^hui GDX GDXJ (which was NOT the case on Thu).

  5. you can fix stupid. i'm here. the pity is that i have no more play money. :-)

  6. Personally still looking for Yellen to get tested severely very soon. It has to happen this year to keep that first year tested Fed Chairperson streak alive. After the test, the Fed will reverse its policy severely but by then everything across the board except the dollar will have been brutalized. Hold Cash!

  7. I was just doing some checking on which assets were actually performing as "safe havens" during the Ukraine Crisis. Since Feb 21, when Yanukovich fled Kiev, and the situation burst onto the consciousness of most of the rest of the world, here are the numbers:

    XLE +7.04%
    TLT +4.92%
    GLD -1.70%
    GDX -8.28%
    SLV -9.81%
    GDXJ -13.18%

    If you are concerned about geopolitics, and are looking for a safe haven, you need to pick the right ones.

    Oh, that's right. This is all upside down because of "manipulation". Yeah...

    1. Good analysis Eric. As I said before gold runs on war hype but sells off on actual conflict, miners are reflecting this big time now.

    2. Prophet,
      Initial research indicates the opposite. Given the complete destruction and money printing of most currencies in todays market (ex. EUR) I think the opposite. Help me here, what are you looking at. I am looking for answers.

      Gero shared what he considered a mistake early in his career, to help others avoid doing the same. When news reports emerged that Egyptian President Anwar El Sadat had been assassinated in October 1981, gold prices started rising. The metal is often bought as a safety play at a time of geo-political tensions. However, Egyptian authorities soon denied initial reports of the assassination, Gero recalled.

      "I sold gold," Gero said. "Then of course we found out that there was an assassination, and I was forced to buy back the next day (to offset a position) at a much higher price, taking a big loss."

      Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/george-gero-learns-value-of-gold-as-lad-during-world-war-ii-cm37708#ixzz307WKP5L2

      On August 31, 1942 OPA raised me ceiling price of foreign silver to 45¢. But on October 1, 1942, the War Production Board (WPB) restricted foreign silver purchases to essential uses only, while the price for domestic silver was set at 71.11 cents. When WPB relinquished all control over silver prices on August 20, 1945, OPA raised the ceiling price of foreign, domestic, and Treasury silver to 71.11 cents on September 21, 1945. The price went up to 90¢ and on November 1, 1946 OPA abolished ceiling prices, whereupon the price declined to 60¢ in June 1947. The price rose slowly back to 90e in January 1951 under the impetus of the Korean War. The rise was stopped upon the imposition of Wage and Price Controls in March 1951. Profit taking caused a decline to 82¢ in June 1952, from which level the price rose to 85e in January 1953 and continued at that level to January 1955. It rose to 90½e in May 1955 and stayed at that level until October 1956 when it rose fo 91.375¢ It fluctuated between 88.625¢ and 91.375¢ for the next five years. It rose to $1.29 in July 1963 and remained at that level.

  8. Nice analysis Eric. You would think those silly doomers would see this and have second thoughts, but no, it will all be blamed on manipulation. I think the dimwits over at KWN have predicted 0 of the last 12 gold/silver rocket launches to "da moon", not to mention the world should've long ended by now.

  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

  10. Dan, I'm so grateful for your objective analysis and advice. I always look to you for guidance before responding to the emotions of the treacherous market. You mentioned copper the other day. Just wondering if you had further thoughts about its recent rise and where you think this thing may be heading.

    1. Beach_SwimR;

      Copper is moving higher due mainly to short covering among the hedge fund community which had been pressing it over concerns about China slowing down in growth. The Durable goods report this week gave it some further impetus to move higher as that number came out much better than expected.

      I mentioned in a recent writeup here at the site that copper has bottomed out but it is not exactly on a roaring tear higher. It is signaling that while growth is rather weak, it is not contracting. In other words, the economy globally is moving along in a type of very slow but steady growth.

      Only if it were to break out to the upside on the charts would we be able to say with some further certainty that growth is accelerating. China continues to be a wild card in this market however as copper's fortunes are still tied to that nation to a very large extent.

  11. Dan - Thank you for your objective analysis and perspective on these difficult markets. A front row seat on the sidelines is not a bad place to be Regarding the grains, wheat is also getting a boost this week. Is the Ukraine fear factor supporting wheat (given the abundance of this crop in that part of the world) or do you see other fundamentals at play? Thank you

    1. Trinity Trader;

      Yes, wheat is being influenced by events in Ukraine as some fear continued unrest will disrupt both export shipments out of that country and might even influence planting intentions. Also, drought conditions across the plains here in the US have had an impact on price which is why whenever the forecasts change and call for some decent rain, prices break lower. If the rain does not materialize as expected, prices them move higher again.

      Also, corn strength tends to pull wheat higher at times because of the relationship in the feed market between both grains.

  12. When you watch silver chart below and the horizontal tunnels it forms



    It looks like Gold is a bit prisoner of the same behavior lately, with symetric tunnels at

    Everything can happen, but I'll wait for 1327-1330 next stop for another 1/3 sale of my long position.
    Stop loss now raised above 1270, so, no pb if we crach again.

  13. Hey Dan
    I read your blog for a balanced opinion and I see you think there is no gold manipulation in the gold market. I did not see any explanation from you the seasoned trader on the large contracts trading in thin trading sessions. And how about Dr Paul Greg Roberts. Do you think he knows a thing or two about the gold market? He is talking about gold manipulation for decades. That includes the time he was in charge.

  14. Fely;

    I did not say I do not think there is no gold manipulation by the feds. If you are going to put words in my mouth, please be accurate. What I have said and will now say again, for the umpteenth time, is that the efforts to stem the rise in the price of gold occurred during the time when the US Dollar was threatening to collapse below major chart support down near the 72 level basis the USDX.

    Do I believe the feds are currently "rigging" the gold price. NO, I do not. They have no need to as the commodity sector overall is not indicating any serious outbreak in inflation nor is the US Dollar threatening to implode lower. If anything, I believe the last thing the feds want right now is a lower gold price because they are terrified of deflation as they cannot control that in the manner that they believe they can fight inflation.

    As to Roberts, No, I do not think he knows a single thing about the futures market nor its operation. He is not, nor was he ever, a commodity futures trader.

    As to my explanation about large orders traded in thin overnight conditions, I have written about that so many times I have forgotten the number. If you are indeed reading here regularly, you are evidently not reading and paying much attention to what I have been discussing. How many more times must I say the same thing over and over and over again? Please pay attention to what you read here.

    What happens in gold is not unique to that market; Large orders regularly hit nearly every commodity futures market whenever those putting them in believe that they have a chance to influence the technical action.

    But more so than that, those who advocate that idiocy generally under the heading of "Flash Crashes" point to it as "conclusive proof" that the feds are at work suppressing the gold price. Those orders are coming from hedge funds, not the bullion banks. That we have to continually refute this nonsense from the perma gold bulls is wearisome.

    Trading is about making money in the markets. It is not about writing crap that attracts cult followers or makes them feel good for losing money. If gold is manipulated all the time and if the powers that be are supposedly too strong, then why the hell waste time investing in it? If you want to continue to believe that every big down movement in gold is the result of nefarious evil doers who are intent on destroying your retirement income, please feel free to do so but do not complain about tying up all your money in a single asset class and watching it go nowhere. Learn to diversify and read the price charts and forgot about all these damned self-appointed "gold experts". All they are going to do is end up costing you money while enriching themselves in the process of peddling their worthless newsletters.

  15. At the risk of being shot down in flames Armstrong has looked back at many charts going back hundreds of years and states catagorically that more often than not gold has generally been a hedge against government and seldom as a hedge against inflation. Look at the charts, extrapolate them against major world events at this times, and it's pretty clear. Well done Dan on keeping your cool with these incessant GIMAOTT bunch, I'd have a copy and paste button as it must take up so much of your time reiterating the same stuff. Congrats dude.

    1. Thankfully Gary, there's very few flame throwers on here.

      And in a totally unrelated topic to Gary or this blog...thank goodness there aren't any racist apologists/antagonists or sarcastic and selective distorters of a serious issue on here who find it easier to mock or condescend an issue they're in denial (or acceptance?) of.

      There's no shortage of half crazy crap on the internet to be sure.
      The trend among some sites to wildly veer so far off course in content and tone is like watching the melting rubber of a tire fire bubble and billow a thick and persistent toxic plume. Ugly, in every sense of the word, and tolerated because it probably represents the beliefs of the talking head in charge who allows it.

      This place is a breath of fresh air to be sure and free of any false or weird pretenses by Dan.

      And on another topic...I should know the answer to this but I've been drawing a complete blank about what GIMAOTT stands for on here. I have no clue and I'll probably say "duh!" after someone clue's me in.

    2. DPH,
      GIAMATT for Gold Is Always Manipulated All The Time :)
      Hmm...are you sure you are a member of our close community?
      If not, quick, learn the song before Dan comes back.


    3. It must be said of me...."Duh!"

      Thanks HDH...I was drawing blanks and knew that I SHOULD'VE KNOWN that.
      I guess manipulation isn't something that automatically pops into my head.

      That's a good thing. :-)

    4. Hubert;

      If the bullion banks could just get their hands on all that gold under the Lonely Mountain that Smaug is guarding, they could keep the price of gold from ever rising again....

  16. Dan,

    It's rare to see COT net long positions for large specs actually increase while gold was down for the week of reporting, such is the case for the week ending Apr 22.

    1. Jesse L;

      Yes, it is all about Ukraine right now... The other large reportable group were the biggest sellers among the spec crowd for this week. That is big pit locals, CTA's and CPO's as well as some private off the floor traders.

      Ukraine is keeping gold from falling apart right now.

  17. Corn, Beans, Wheat and etc. Presume most have seen Saturdays WSJ article on increased costs due to Roundup Resistant weeds. Back to good old 2,4D and older herbicides.

  18. What can I say, except it's troubling.
    The guy who gave me the book "777" has his birthday on 24th july, so 24/7.
    I had the idea to link the age of the pope to this 777 theory book, and found that the pope will be 77 years, 7 months, 7 days on 24th july 2014. Funny.
    It means he will end this the next day, the 25/07/2014, i.e 7/7/7.
    Ok he was born at 21h, so 7+7+7.
    Curious indeed.
    Then you write 24th july 2014 on google and a result says "opening gates of hades".
    Then you do the same on facebook and you find something about the last night, night of terror, with a picture of zombies swirling the place.
    Then you write Mathew 24:7 and you find :
    "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."
    Then you write Ezekiel 25:7 and you find :
    "therefore I will stretch out my hand against you and give you as plunder to the nations. I will wipe you out from among the nations and exterminate you from the countries. I will destroy you, and you will know that I am the LORD"

    Then you see that in Ukraine or in nuke rain is phonetically exactly the same.
    Then you start thinking I'm a phony, but it's true that somehow I'm wondering if someone simply wants to send me a sign about that night of 24th july to 25th july 2014.
    It sounds totally weird, but with so many crazy coincidences, if things get totally messy a few days before that day, maybe just pack up things and go for a nice week picnic somewhere far from large cities.
    Well, this was my Paco Rabane moment and I'll have no problem if you laugh at it.

    1. My Paco Rabone moment happened before dinner when I splashed on a little "UltraViolet Man". }:^)

    2. hehe, yes I think just those cumulated coincidences plus the crazy news about Ukraine made me nervous. Sorry guys, this is is not another faraway country anymore, turns out that Europe is in the middle of this, which means my home, so, I can't help getting worried...
      Have a nice weekend and let's joke about ultra violet men, better laugh than eat one's nails about that when you can do absolutely nothing about it anyway :)

  19. Don't think they connect at all. Not laughing though as the world is full of unbelievable coincidences.

  20. DarkPurpleHaze
    Gold Is Manipulated All Of The Time :-))

    1. So I've heard ;-)

      Seriously though, if some of the current talking heads out there lived in the 60's or 70's (when the Washington Agreement on gold happened or when Nixon closed the gold window) they would've been talking about end game scenario's for the last 40-45 YEARS just like they are now.

      The "end is near" crowd defines imminent as a rolling one year can kicking excuse to pretend and extend their missed calls. Some of these pundits could literally end up predicting/moaning the same thing for another decade or longer.
      Just imagine if blogs or forums were technically possible in the 30's (FDR Gold Act) or 40's (WWII). "The End" would've been imminent for the last 70-80 years. :-0

      That aspect of the current doomer/manipulation of everything crowd needs to be considered. Heck, if ZeroHedge existed in the early 20's they would've had the end of the world happening during Germany's hyperinflation.

      Fear and sensationalism sell. Period.

  21. Well...24-48 has passed anf it's been relatively quiet on the Eastern Front.
    Almost too quiet...

    Satellite Images Reveal Massing Of 15,000 Ukraine Troops, Hundreds Of Tanks Around Slavyansk
    Submitted by Tyler Durden on 04/26/2014 - 23:15

    Russian RIA Novosti reports that it has received satellite photos, "which clearly show the accumulation of a large number of Ukrainian military equipment and weapons on the border with the Russian Federation and in the vicinity of Slavyasnk." RIA cites a source in the Defense Ministry, who commented that the pictures show a military formation designed "to wipe out the city and all its inhabitants from the face of the earth." According to source, the group has more than 15,000 troops from the Ukraine army and national guard, about 160 tanks, 230 infantry fighting vehicles and APCs, and as much as 150 mortars, howitzers and multiple launch rocket systems ("Grad" and "Smerch").


    Where the end of everything is only a matter of time.

  22. A few more days from now after the Ukraine crisis ends, gold and silver could have another horrific collapse, as the "End Game" continues in the PM mining sector. Smart money will be shorting this group and piling into the beaten up growth names pretty soon, as the gloom and doomers once again will end up looking like total fools again.

    Seems like every time gold makes a short term high, then GDX and GDXJ owners get "bailed in" to the tune of 20% - 30% again and again, over and over.

    I'll say this, I've never seen one group or sector endure so much punishment over and over, yet the gold bugs keep hanging on.

    And keep hitting the F12 key over and over again on Kitco, KWN, and jsmineset over and over again hoping and praying that "gold to 'da moon!" happens "any minute now!!!" as advertised and promised by these charlatans.

    1. so sports fans, how are we calling the pm opening this afternoon? sparks wants to know

    2. Well the miners are up a bit but haven't reacted with gold's recently rally all that strongly. Either this is signifying gold's downturn soon, or miners could be suffering from increasing gas prices.
      Most of the leading miners have bearish chart formations.

    3. "A few more days from now after the Ukraine crisis ends"

      Yes, but I'm curious to know how you see this crisis ending in a few days...

  23. Dont know about the opening, but this weekends dog picture tells me Mark is going to be right for a few more months.

    The charlatan follower gold bugs will receive more religious experience in that final wash out.

    Imagine how many RSU Steven, Joe and Jim - and the corporate secretary - will receive at the lows!

  24. Mark, it looks like u have me beat like a red-headed step-child on our palladium bet. What is the calendar cut-off and at what price? sparks

  25. Steve I can't remember exactly when I posted the bet but I think I gave us both 6 months.

    1. ok, so pick the price and calendar and everything is ok; sparks

  26. From CNBC

    Killer virus spreads unchecked as pork hits record http://www.cnbc.com/id/101617605

  27. Can someone tell me where at what part this is wrong?

    1) neither Obama nor Putine can now back down without looking weak and defeated about Uraine. Therefore, more words, more sanctions, more escalation.
    2) as Ukraine's kievian government refuses to split the country, and as populations of eastern ukraine refuse to surrended but will fight for a referendum, civil war is unevitable.
    3) as Russia declared it would protect eastern Ukraine, Russia will soon "invade" Ukraine with russian troops.
    4) as Kiev government wants the support of the West and calls for more help, the invasion of russian troops will automatically start more reinforcements, formation, backup, military aid, whatever you name it from the west to ukrainian regular army.
    5) Russia will end up fighting with its own troops against a ukrainian army supported, supplied and reinforced by the west, thanks also to European countries such as Poland, etc...
    6) In those conditions, how could a war remain local? Supply chain must me cut to win the war. There is no other possibility but to go forward and invade the whole of Europe by land. Europeans are for sure not ready to fight, exactly like the French declared war to Germany in 1939 without attacking, but instead being invaded eventually and surrendering quickly to the enemy. A full scale invasion of Europe by russian troops is not only a possibility, but an obligation, in case a real war starts between russian army and west supported ukrainian troops.

    1. The final stage of European invasion is so dangerous Putin will limit his goals.

    2. All of it might be true. But when people take the next step and say that this will light a fire under gold, that's a "maybe, maybe not" sort of proposition. Ukraine hasn't really done much for gold so far, as I noted in my post above.

      It's unfortunate, because I'd like my gold to go up, but I've become quite skeptical about gold's utility as a hedge for much of anything. I'm all about "show me on the chart" these days.

  28. 7.) Russian heat from Moldova radiates towards Odessa.
    8.) Syria eventually goes "hot" with increased US/West help and the fight for Syria is "on".
    Can Russia afford to maintain or even fight a multi-pronged conflict with it's limited naval resources and the current tightening Russian economic situation?
    9.)Turkey eventually breaches their treaty with Russia and closes off Mediterranean access to Russian vessels.

    ....and btw....good morning to all!

  29. RSX screaming off the lows and "Horrific Collapse" in GLD and GDX resumes. Dow now up 124 points "Like It Never Even Happened".....

    KWN: Way to go guys!!!!


    1. Yeah, I just went to KWN to see what's up. Egon has a post up dated yesterday. Here's a quote: "Isn't it amazing that six months ago nobody talked about Ukraine as a potential catalyst for major conflict?"

      OK, so then I go and pull up a 6 month chart of GLD. Down 4.59%.

      If there's a canary in the coal mine on Ukraine, gold ain't it.

  30. Eric,

    Check out the outright collapse and devastation in names like KGC, AUY, ANV, TRX, etc., down over 70%.

    Investors in those stocks will never recover.

    Meanwhile AMZN getting pasted today however its still way, way, way up since mid - 2011, still up over 200% even with this year's pullback.

    1. I'm well aware of the devasation of the miners. Happily, I dumped all mine 17 months ago, on average at double today's prices.

      Schadenfreude is a nice dish, but even that gets stale after a while.

  31. Eric well put. Mark likes to beat the proverbial dead horse. A silver tongued basher. And yes it makes one wonder why.


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